Curse

egZ · May 17, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Most of the guilds use the following team composition to complete doa:
2 tanks (sliver, recall), vor, 3 spikers (usually eles or necs), ua, monk bonder.

But a couple of euro guilds use something quite different:
1 tank (recall), 5 nec spikers, ua, ele bonder.

(in this post im refering to relax farming doa runs in 40+ min time range)

I have used both ways to complete doa (one tank only a couple of times tho).
The main differences I've noticed in the one tank + ele bond variation are:

Gloom: balling incoming groups in front of the cave instead of glitching it

Foundry:
~ Room 2: spreading instead of going to corner
~ Room 3: balling the big group and 3 dryders+dreamrider at once
~ Big room: balling the entire room at barrel or at column and spiking it

Veil:
~ ele bonder does the role of stationary tank and tanks a group alone later on
~ using second instead of fourth or fifth trench
~ PI necro soloes the mes/ele lord
~ terils are always done 3-3 cause of the ease giver by Protective Bond

My questions are:
~ What is the benefit of using a necro over vor ?
~ Why do a nec often carry UA or SS ? (I understand that FoC is a pretty useless skill because of small damage range and Delile Enchantments + Desecrate Enchantments is a much better option )
~ Is spiking all Great Room really faster or more officient then just luring the enemies away to cap the snakes ?
~ Assuming that germanway is safer and more officent, why has it been kept "secret" and never made it to common use by majority of farming guilds ?

Please share your ideas and opinons on the topic.
Thank you.

Record full runs (no hos skipping like 21min)
Prenerf
Solo tank 28 min by THAC
Dual tank 32 min by fRee

Post-nerf
Solo tank 34 min by THAC
Dual tank 37 min by GS+LOD

Welthas · May 18, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

The Necro Spikes are cleaner, the ball of monsters doesn't have to be as tight for it all to get killed.. and yes foundry is faster killing the whole group.. but ty for raising questions about something that is supposed to not be released lol.

It's been kept secret so people don't flame the boards because it's different than any other way of doing DoASC it's so fast, and requires a higher level of skilled players than shitterflames or FoCway does.

Essence Snow · May 18, 2010, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welthas

ty for raising questions about something that is supposed to not be released lol.

It's been kept secret so people don't flame the boards because it's different than any other way of doing DoASC it's so fast, and requires a higher level of skilled players than shitterflames or FoCway does.

That's bout a half stupid reason to keep something a secret. Greed is more like it IMO.

Life Bringing · May 18, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welthas

The Necro Spikes are cleaner, the ball of monsters doesn't have to be as tight for it all to get killed.. and yes foundry is faster killing the whole group.. but ty for raising questions about something that is supposed to not be released lol.

It's been kept secret so people don't flame the boards because it's different than any other way of doing DoASC it's so fast, and requires a higher level of skilled players than shitterflames or FoCway does.

Uhh, the spikes are obviously cleaner because there's a fifth spiker. Mob does have to be tighter because everything is adjacent damage, whereas Searing Flames is Nearby. Germans have already said that dual tanking is faster, so kinda confused wtf you're on.

impulsion · May 18, 2010, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Spikes are clean because you are using defile+desecrate = instant spike. In ele-way teams you use savannah heat which is damage over time.

The builds do not really require more skilled players (other than the tank role), since you have prot bond on the entire party.

It is faster because you can ball stuff quickly and thus messily, and the necros can easily finish off stragglers whilst the tank moves on.

Spiking foundry room5 main mob is faster than the usual way of pullnig aggro and doing snakes by going in a circle, however if you take a more sensible path it is faster to pull the aggro aside. This require 2 tanks to do however.

Germanway is not a secret at all, this is just an english forum.

You take a necro over VoR because defile+desecrate from 5 necs kills everything - you don't really need VoR except for cleanup.

Spiteful spirit is used for cleanup and on gloom boss.

UA is carried on a necro, because the normal "UA monk" doesn't carry UA, but takes glyph of renewal instead (along with blessed aura) in order to keep seed up 100% of the time. Since the tank doesn't have life barrier, he takes more dmg than with monk bonder runs.

"Mob does have to be tighter because everything is adjacent damage, whereas Searing Flames is Nearby"
No, the spike is with defile+desecrate = nearby range, and armor-ignoring. The entire point is that balls are done extremely fast and so are not tight, and the necros just clean up after.

In veil, germanway goes down the 2nd trench, and then goes along to monk lord and out the end trench. I think this takes a similar time to going down the 3rd trench now (less walking at the ends, but you must pop an extra trench). Pre-nerf however, in 3rd trench the tank would usually pull 4 groups into 1 spike, which is probably faster than the germanway.

Disadvantages:

You cannot split in veil on the ranger and derv lords.
You cannot split for portal in gloom.
You have to spike main mob in final room of foundry.
The tanks job is quite a lot harder, and failing can easily fail the run.
You have to run red+blue rock candy on the necs or the spike can sometimes be too slow.

egZ · May 18, 2010, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Germans have already said that dual tanking is faster, so kinda confused wtf you're on.

Im talking about full runs, the dual tank 27 ect is using hos to skip.

impulsion · May 18, 2010, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by egZ

Im talking about full runs, the dual tank 27 ect is using hos to skip.

Hos? Anyways, dual tank is still faster because you don't need all 5 necros, and a 2nd time saves a couple of mins in foundry and veil.

Also, pre-nerf record was 27min without skipping - using dual tank, and there are claims of 32min post-nerf using dual tank, but this is not confirmed.

Icy The Mage · May 18, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by egZ

Most of the guilds use the following team composition to complete doa:
2 tanks (sliver, recall), vor, 3 spikers (usually eles or necs), ua, monk bonder.

But a couple of euro guilds use something quite different:
1 tank (recall), 5 nec spikers, ua, ele bonder.

(in this post im refering to relax farming doa runs in 40+ min time range)

I have used both ways to complete doa (one tank only a couple of times tho).
The main differences I've noticed in the one tank + ele bond variation are:

Gloom: balling incoming groups in front of the cave instead of glitching it

Foundry:
~ Room 2: spreading instead of going to corner
~ Room 3: balling the big group and 3 dryders+dreamrider at once
~ Big room: balling the entire room at barrel or at column and spiking it

Veil:
~ ele bonder does the role of stationary tank and tanks a group alone later on
~ using second instead of fourth or fifth trench
~ PI necro soloes the mes/ele lord
~ terils are always done 3-3 cause of the ease giver by Protective Bond

My questions are:
~ What is the benefit of using a necro over vor ?
~ Why do a nec often carry UA or SS ? (I understand that FoC is a pretty useless skill because of small damage range and Delile Enchantments + Desecrate Enchantments is a much better option )
~ Is spiking all Great Room really faster or more officient then just luring the enemies away to cap the snakes ?
~ Assuming that germanway is safer and more officent, why has it been kept "secret" and never made it to common use by majority of farming guilds ?

Please share your ideas and opinons on the topic.
Thank you.

Record full runs (no hos skipping like 21min)
Prenerf
Solo tank 28 min by THAC
Dual tank 32 min by fRee

Post-nerf
Solo tank 34 min by THAC
Dual tank 37 min by GS+LOD

Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure that pre-nerf the record was 27 mins for dual tank >.<

egZ · May 18, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy The Mage

I'm pretty sure that pre-nerf the record was 27 mins for dual tank >.<

Yes I overlooked that. Not because I havent seen those screenies, its because it hasnt been confirmed that the dual tank 27 min run really completed doa.
Two things made me wonder:
1)If you look at the dual tank screenies, with time range 27-30 posted in "Speedclear records" thread, there is always a monk or necro with secondary assasin proffesion. Additionaly hos can't be only used to skip Veil.
2)Two months ago, after all the screenies where already posted, I talked and played with the player (Giest Der Wahrheit) who's been tanking on the 27 min run and several other records. He said that the 21 min run uses hos to skip veil and other parts of doa.
Also we've talked about 27 min for a while, but afterwards he claimed that the actuall full run record is the 28 min THAC run posted above.
It would be really appreciated if some players who are real doa pros (ppl from thac or their buddies) could make a post gerarding the actual full run record.

Life Bringing · May 19, 2010, 12:40 AM // 00:40

You keep saying heart of shadow...Iirc, veil skip is done with consume and rez scrolls. I don't think hos can get through veil. The N/A was probably the trencher, which is not a veil skip

impulsion · May 19, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

1) You cannot skip anything in DoA using HoS.

2) The 21min run is known as a "skipclear", and is not a full DoA run. It is entirely possible to skip 3 out of 4 of the DoA areas barely killing anything.

There are several screens of full runs ranging from 27-30 mins using dual tank. The 28min solo tank screen by THAC is absolutely ridiculous - because it is solo tank.

As for the 27min screen, you can tell from it that no areas were skipped.

Athrun Feya · May 19, 2010, 10:43 AM // 10:43

...since when has germanway been secret?

EDIT: bit of history.

Two distinct builds for DoA, germanway and traditionalway, existed roughly two years ago. The latter was popularised by [icU] and [agro] in threads like http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...tml?t=10333047 and http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...t10327624.html. [agro] actually got it down to 47minutes in late 2008, which sounds incredibly slow now but was groundbreaking at the time, certainly better than anything germanway was producing.

Over time, skills changed and tactics got cleverer. American and French players absorbed the builds popularised by agro/icU and changed them inline with skill updates. The Germans, however, stuck to their own style which was always distinguishable by the single tank and later the elebonder.

I'd say up until the point when SF changed traditionalway was the better of the two builds; life barrier appeared far easier to tank with than prot bond and really defined roles made it easier for those who, perhaps, weren't terribly experienced. Germanway was never really a secret, just inferior for a long time (you know, stubborn germans..) so it wasn't popularised or used by anyone else.

The change to SF suddenly brought new light to germanway. Now prot bond could be used in conjunction with renewal seed of life (the UA in germanway is on a nec) meaning you could, for the first time, pull every foe in foundry (well, without someone frantically hitting Heal Party). I think they're all necros because historically germans always took a bip and now between SR and AoS those builds still have a generous amount of e management. The lack of 2nd tank isn't really significant, with prot bond -everyone- can tank..

Really, germanway is better now than it's every been and i'm convinced better than traditional methods. However, change doesn't happen quickly, everyone finds it hard letting go of a build framework they've been using for 2 years.

PoM PoM PoM PoM PoM · May 19, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

since ppl know it

impulsion · May 19, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

The change to SF suddenly brought new light to germanway. Now prot bond could be used in conjunction with renewal seed of life (the UA in germanway is on a nec) meaning you could, for the first time, pull every foe in foundry (well, without someone frantically hitting Heal Party).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mean life bond there not prot bond - prot bond is not on the tank (although elebonder could maintain it now).

Also, I'm not convinced that the [agro]/[icU] tactics were better pre-nerf; it might have been harder to run but the german teams had faster times.

Schnellburg · May 19, 2010, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mean life bond there not prot bond - prot bond is not on the tank (although elebonder could maintain it now).

Also, I'm not convinced that the [agro]/[icU] tactics were better pre-nerf; it might have been harder to run but the german teams had faster times.

Agro and icU were really the only 2 guilds to put their builds and tactics out there. I've always heard the Germanway groups had faster times hence why there was a bit of a flame war between Psy and a few other guys on these boards a while back about it.

Long story short, Germanway=fun and fast, Traditional=safe but too blah for the most part.

ashes · May 19, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Would love to see a video clip of a team spiking down the huge room, if someone captured it on film

Athrun Feya · May 19, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you mean life bond there not prot bond - prot bond is not on the tank (although elebonder could maintain it now).

They maintain both but yeah its the life bond triggering seed, should have made that clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulsion

Also, I'm not convinced that the [agro]/[icU] tactics were better pre-nerf; it might have been harder to run but the german teams had faster times.

Depends how long ago you're talking. For a long time agro/icU builds definitely did dominate in speed over the then-germanway (i'm thinking more pre-CoP nerf era when they were created - it may seem like a long time ago but it accounts for half the time these theorycrafts have existed). The CoP nerf hit the traditionalway a lot harder (to begin with) and germanway tactics improved at a far more accelerated rate. The result of this was that you began to see german 1-tank builds in fastest thread (or icU trying, and succeeding for a while, in beating said times). It's really quite debatable which was better during this period. However, the change to SF sealed that argument - the prevailing build for this era is germanway.

impulsion · May 19, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Ah ok yeah, I don't know much history of these things ^^

Whenever I have done germanway the elebonder doesn't maintain prot bond on the tank - pre-nerf the energy drain would be too much, however you can maintain it now since all wand attacks are too low dmg to trigger it and so give energy via life bond.

This is why they take a perma-seed monk - in foundry (and possibly gloom) with just life bond the tank needs a lot of healing. Pre-nerf the tank didn't take the entire foundry room aggro, and in gloom he had hardly any of the degen / damage that is present now.

egZ · May 19, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

The N/A was prbably the trencher, which is not a veil skip

That would be understandable since the 27 min run was dual tank trenchway.
While were on the topic, I was wondering how veil was done on that record run,because since the ele bonder had already done the role of stationary tank, there was an additional, third assa tank. (possibly A/N from looking at the screenies). Might have been something similar to what the french guild pRma has been using with 2 assasin tanks and one A/N sin, instead of UA. (link to their guru post)
Could someone care to explain what is the role of the x/A spiker (or A/N) trencher ?
I know back in the day when cryway was the real deal icU has been using a Me/A trencher with Shadow of Haste.

impulsion · May 19, 2010, 10:32 PM // 22:32

OK, pre-nerf, you have the main tank and the elebonder. They do everything in veil as normal germanway. To do trenchway you add in an extra A/N or N/A in place of a spiker, so your team is: main tank, elebonder, the N/A, 4 spikers, and a monk. The N/A's job is to solo trenches, for the rest of the run he is useless (although in reality he can do a lot of the recall tank pulls and so acts like a 2nd tank).

When trenchway was invented, it was done duo with a Me/A. This was in the traditionalway setup, so one of the 2 tanks goes with the mesmer to do trenches, and the rest of the team does veil as normal.